Once in a great while, I get a comment on one of my blog posts that is so well written and pertinent to readers needs, that I ask permission of the writer and I make it an actual blog post all on its own. Let’s face it, a comment is not always going to be seen when it’s “Comment #142” on a particular post. In this case, I tried to contact the writer, but they used an invalid email address. Perhaps they will contact me again after seeing their comment as an actual post. Hope so.
I have a question which nobody ever seems to be able to answer effectively, but which is very important!
Before asking the question, a little info …
1) WHAT HAPPENED: I survived a most traumatic relationship with a narcissist.
2) WHY?: I was too naive, young and immature to understand who I was trying to relate to, plus I am an empath. (not Pollyanna though) I was wrongly taught that being patient and forgiving is natural and rational, because ‘nobody’s perfect.’
3) PTSD: I was deeply affected by him and, as a result, a year after the discard, I was still so messed up that, for the first (and only) time in my life, I even experienced one episode of dissociation, when subjected to further abuse in the working environment. I guess I just could not take any more of that, I just paralyzed there and then, unnaturally calm though, feeling nothing except my body!
I also kept dreaming about him.
4) CONSEQUENCES: I reacted by becoming the exact opposite of what I was: From TOTALLY naive to TOTALLY suspicious and terrified of people, always wondering about their words, “WHAT and WHY are they saying THIS to me? What do they expect my reaction will be?”
I even started obsessing about my own EYES and about keeping in check with an absolute blank non revealing stare HOW others are watching ME through their eyes, to instantly notice IF they are
getting my emotions and if they are making subtle sadistic smirks or smiles as a result of possibly detecting ANY kind of weak emotion, like fear, on my part; also new to me. I now can get terrible rages if I even get the feeling somebody is treating me like my exN did.
So it’s like I feel a part of him is inside me, I don’t know how else to describe it!
But still, the apparently contradictory thing is that I am enormously more empathic than I used to be, like my empathy got enhanced somehow, not lessened.
For example: I sense other people’s pain immensely to the point that I feel pain too if I see others sad. Trust me, I experienced some remarkable situations where it was like I FELT all the pain the other person was feeling, instantly, to the point that I would start crying and sobbing and feeling desperate all of a sudden just looking through their eyes! Now I feel absolutely very protective and even more totally respectful and loving towards people who suffer, more than any other time before in my life.
POSITIVE ASPECTS ABOUT the N-experience:
1) I now sincerely understand that being alone CAN be a blessing indeed, and that ANYTHING is better than being with a Narcissist, given that you RECOGNISE that you are dealing with one.
2) I now understand that my personal (human AND therefore NORMAL) fears, which all normal people have (loneliness, emptiness, finity, fear itself, sadness, not being worthy …), CAN be artfully used by others against me, and by means of myself (in other words: Ns let others be ruled by their own fears, … and when N-supply (this is what I was for him, an object) ultimately finds out, we have the additional self-blame and shame for letting Ns do this to us by our own selves!)
3) I now understand that there are people with NO EMPATHY … believe it or not! Understand it/accept it or not.
4) I am now humble, and will NEVER ever again say “it could not happen to me!” Instead I don’t judge, I shut up and think “Unless you lived through that, you cannot understand what it feels like!”
QUESTION:
Since I want to stay away as far as possible from Narcissists … here is the question:
“When I first meet somebody, how do I know: … … if I am talking to a Narcissist …. (not again please!”)
But, what I really mean is, how would I know… for sure (no doubts, and excluding other
pathologies, if there are other pathologies which are similar or easily mistaken for N)… from the start (possibly just after a few weeks or months from meeting somebody.)
COROLLARY TO THE QUESTION:
IF you answered that only a very good psychiatrist can know, and that there is no way for me to know …would you be implying that I am condemned to either:
1) Isolate myself from ANYBODY else…
2) Or subject myself to possible Ns and ultimately find out / find out only when it is too late for me to avoid feeling abused again?
THE QUESTION IS IMPORTANT because:
1) The urge to TRUST somebody can be strong, and makes us biased when objectivity is required, … We all look for love and care, it’s human nature!
2) The ability of Ns to conceal how UNCARING, MEAN, and FALSE they are is truly excellent … and one always wonders and wonders and wonders…”Is he? isn’t he? Is he? isn’t he? … to the point of self-torture!
3) Giving a list of narcissistic traits is not useful, we who were once traumatized know only too well the traits … especially when very visible at last!
PLEASE help with some useful answer!
P.S. I understand that you are not a doctor Elisse, but maybe some doctor reading the post could try to answer; or maybe there’s someone who might know one who could ask him/her for an opinion ….
Dear Karen:
As I said above, I tried to answer your comment by email, but your email address was not valid. I am working on getting an answer for your from a professional, but while we wait for their answer, here are some thoughts from me…not a dr. and I don’t even play one on TV. (It’s a very old commercial.)
There are many wildly waving “Red Flags” that could be a clue for you (and anyone else) when you meet someone new. I am going to post these as they come to mind, so check back.
While I am driving my youngest here and there, I have ‘fabulous’ thoughts/ideas that come to mind and I can’t always stop and write them down. I also don’t mean to sound sarcastic or humorous, but my answers might come out that way. Sorry.
1. If a grown man/woman (women can be N’s too) wants to jump into a new relationship like a lovesick high school freshman, texts you constantly, shows up unexpectedly, makes you feel like you are being smothered…they could be an N or they have some other seriously, unhealthy relationship issues.
2. After being with this new person, do you feel exhausted? Ask your self this honestly and not based on the excitement of going out with a new guy/girl. I was exhausted after spending ANY amount time with the N. Very much the same way you might be feeling after being with a needy but intelligent toddler for several hours. I also felt like I had “emotional whiplash” after listening to his “double talk” for any amount of time. He’d say one thing and then say the exact opposite 5 minutes later – and then deny having said the first comment. (Gaslighting.)
3. Do you feel icky when you are with this person? Do you feel like you are being smothered? Do you feel like you are dealing with an emo teenager in an adult’s body?
4. Have you met the new person by being introduced by a friend? Ask this person what they REALLY think of the new guy/girl. Ask them why (if they are not already dating, would they date the person.) What does your family think? Listen to what they think.
5. Have you ever watched ‘The Bachelor?’ (The best season of it was the year that it was Ryan & Trista and that had a very happy ending with a wedding and so far two babies.) In the show, the guy takes a couple of girls home to met his parents. I recall seeing where the family members really let the bachelor know what they think of the prospective brides.
6. Listen to your gut. Some people don’t believe in ‘intuition’ but I do.
7. I can’t help but direct you to a post from Dr. Joseph Carver, a psychologist from Ohio. He allowed something that he wrote called “Warning Signs You’re Dating a Loser” to be freely used on the Internet. In fact, I think I have posted it during the past several years on my blog.
Check out what he wrote. You can read it as though he is giving you pre-relationship advice. It is quite long. I would advise printing it out and grabbing my favorite tool…that yellow highlighter.
http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/IdentifyingLosers.html
Reblogged this on Ladywithatruck's Blog and commented:
An excellent post I had to share……..
Sure Carrie – Happy New Year.
ES
Are there supposed to be more answers after 1?
Dear Mary:
There will be – have not been able to finish – Pardons please.
ES
I can relate so well to the commenter on all aspects of her journey, including the heightened empathy. She/he doesn’t say how long they have been split from the N (or if they did I have forgotten) but its been 3 yrs for me and I have found that at the 2 yr mark I felt a lot more vulnerable than I do now, 3 yrs out. I haven’t hidden away but I have been very cautious and have dealt with a few N types since leaving my ex. It seemed as if I was an N magnet at first, not romantically but because I was so vulnerable emotionally and so destitute financially I seemed to attractive men wanting to take advantage of that, I became quite cynical and shut off because of it.
I don’t feel I am cynical any more but I am cautious and very aware of every little indication a person may be an N, whether it is a social situation or work, family even and I take my time getting to know them. Personally I find I am quite perceptive and usually pick up on the signs rather quickly. I think the secret is listening to your gut. There are no guarantees, the professionals get sucked in by these people all the time, and they are experts at hiding their true selves but there are little “give aways” that we previously ignored and we always feel it in our gut. I think the only way we can assure ourselves safety from these soul suckers is to take all relationships slow, that is not to say a person has to hide away or be shut off to people, in fact the best way to disarm an N is to be open to them and see how they react to your openness. But you can’t do it from a vulnerable position and that takes time, you have to be healed enough that if you discover the person is an N you can walk away unscathed. Maybe disappointed that the person wasn’t what they projected but not devastated because they abused your deepest fears and vulnerabilities.
The truth is, there are always going to be N’s waiting to bounce on a person and if we are to move on with our life we have to be aware and listen to our guts instinct and not doubt ourselves. Every single person I have talked to who has been involved with an N had early signs and ignored them and didn’t listen to their gut. I know she asked for a sure fire way of knowing without a doubt that a person is an N, and the only answer to that is listen to your gut, it does not lie. Sure you can doubt it, what it you are wrong, what if the person isn’t an N, maybe I am just being too cautious, maybe my N radar is malfunctioning because I was so hurt and now am damaged from that hurt, maybe I suspect everyone is an N. that is the empathy in us speaking, we don’t want to falsely accuse someone of being something they aren’t, we don’t want to be unfair but we can control that self doubt and have to.
When a deer in the forest senses danger they act on that gut feeling, it is a God given gift to sense danger; the deer doesn’t stand around and wait to make sure they are picking up the signal properly. They don’t worry about looking silly for running, they don’t worry about being fair think to themselves, “I have come so far and now I have to run back the same way I came and waste all that time, maybe I am wrong, maybe I should just go a bit further so I can be sure there is danger and then I will feel better about wasting my time or maybe there won’t be danger and I will get where I am going faster”. NO they run!! as fast as they can in the opposite direction and they don’t look back and I am sure they thank their lucky stars they got away.
As for needing human closeness and interaction; she is right that we all (or most of us) have a need for closeness with people, we need other people in our lives to care about. Especially an empath needs to love someone. I found one of the things that I had the hardest time dealing with was, I loved loving my ex. He didn’t love me, he didn’t treat me lovingly so it made no sense to stay; but I stayed because I loved loving him. The N forces us to love like we have never loved before, he challenges us to love unconditionally, love despite how he treats us, and we give from our soul because it is the only way we can love at that point. When you give that much it is very hard to stop loving and giving but eventually you give until you have nothing left to give and he discards you. once your reserves start to replenish he comes back and you do it again and again until finally he walks away for good or by some miracle you break away. But eventually your reserves replenish and you feel the need to love again. I don’t know how to explain it but I found in my life I was able to focus my love on other things besides him. I started to perform random acts of kindness, it is a safe way to show love to someone, you never see them again but you make a difference in someone’s life. I started my blog reaching out to other victims in hopes of saving them from some of the heart ache I suffered and at times that is almost too much to bare because I can relate so well but for me it takes a bad experience and makes it worth while. On occasion an N has come into my blog but it didn’t take long for myself and the members of my page to pick up on them. I was able to observe from a safe distance and when enough signs presented themselves I dealt with them. I focused on mending some family relationships (I think almost everyone who has been involved with an N has some family fences to mend) by being open and honest with my feelings and was prepared to lose the relationship if necessary but in each case the relationship became stronger and better for it.
Sorry Elisse, this got much longer than I intended. Just my thoughts on it.
Excellent question, it really got me thinking.
Have a great new year and thank you for all you do to help other victims of narcissists. I came to your blog years ago now and I forget what I said exactly, something about “When does the pain stop?” and I didn’t even come back to see if there was a response but you emailed me personally. It meant a lot to me.
Hugs
Carrie
Dear Carrie:
Bless your heart. ❤ You made my day.
I do sometimes personally email a response to a commenter, just to let them know I approved their comment. Your comment, I remember, tugged at my heart and I sent you a private comment.
I will have to look back and see if the online response was more general.
Thank you for your thoughts above. The comment was not too long at all.
ES
It is now 2 years after my N was arrested and I began divorce proceedings. I am 58 years old and that makes it very difficult to move on – no job skills or history of employment and no friends and very little left of family.
I made it through the holidays. If I can just make it through one more year, maybe things will get better but it is a struggle every day and every hour – but then every day I make it through is also a triumph.
For now I will not let anyone get close enough to even know my last name as I live in fear for my life – the abuse has made me think I will never recover in this lifetime. If I were younger I would have more resources and be more resilient and have a better chance of having a life again.
So – if you are not in my mental state of despair and able to function in a job and in society and go out in public – you are doing well in your recovery and you will get better and better just by being AWARE.
Dear Joan: Yes, triumph in each new day! You give your age, so your ARE resillent! You are more resourceful than a 20 year old. You have more knowledge. There are agencies to help you, you just have to find them. Contact a women’s agency in your area. Go to your public library and ask one of the Librarians for help in locating information. I know there has to be help out there to aide you in starting over.
Blessings and peace to you.
Write again and let me know your progress.
ES
EVERYONE! Please look up, read and REMEMBER something called “Biderman’s Chart of Coercion”. This is a document and blueprint of how to brainwash someone. It was a total wake-up call for me, unfortunately after the fact. It only added to my disgust at being conned and manipulated so easily but it is the way narcissists operate and it is just like breathing to them.
Everyone: Here is the link. The information contained in it is centered on the abuse that happens in cults. Still, it is a good read on mind control/ power/ abuse of vulnerable people.
ES
http://www.nwrain.net/~refocus/coerchrt.html
Joan, I did look up that site and it was very eye opening and informative thank you. As for your first comment, I understand where you are coming from, truly I do. I left my ex with $5, and a broken down truck, without any furniture or place to live. for 2 years every single day I thought, “I can not do this one more day, I can’t” but I did and the longer I was away from my ex the stronger I got. Once you are away from the N the black cloud they have hanging over them dissipates and the sun shines through and good things can enter your life. You have to seek out the good things sometimes though. I am 56 this April so not much younger than you but still with a lot of years left to be happy and successful. my definition of successful has changed and I am so very grateful for all the small blessings in my life and now 3 years out look forward to the future. I too had lost my family and it has been difficult but we have mended the fences with much open and honest communication. I had to accept the limitations of some of my family members, they have their own baggage but we have all realize how precious family is and I think they realize how close they came to losing me.
I have a relationship with my son that fills my heart to overflowing on a daily basis and a grand daughter I love with all my heart.
Please do not pigeon hole yourself because of your age, you have much to learn, share and live yet.
hugs
Carrie
As a 59 year old survivor of abusive violent marriage to a narcissist.
I am pretty careful and had this conversation with a 60 year old man trying to get me interested:
He was explaining a 6 year previous relationship and told me “I would drive an hour to her house and she wouldn’t be ready, still in her bathrobe, so we ended up having sex and it was nice, but then I didn’t get to do what I wanted to do.”
Meaning some activity he had planned.
Could anyone imagine this from a non-narcissism point of view? Luckily I know to run not walk away now and never NEVER have contact.
Dear Joan:
Thank you for writing.
No, I can’t imagine being in a relationship where I had to drive an hour to see the person and then they were not ready when I arrived. Oh correction, they were ready but not for what was planned. Besides manipulative, it was just plain selfish.
ES
ps – I removed your last name for your safety.
Please I am asking for help … I feel desperate, i have no more tears to cry, feel hopeless.
This blog focuses on Ns in personal relationships … but what about the evil Ns do to anyone else outside close personal relationships?
I really have the feeling that this other category of N-interaction is potentially even more dreadful and hopeless, because one often really cannot easily escape.
On the contrary, in personal relationships (unless one becomes a parent, or the Ns are one’s parents, or unless there is divorce settlements involved) escape can be a comparatively “easy” choice, at least when it comes to choosing a boyfriend.
Just for clarity: I too have been in a damaging relationship with an N years ago, learnt my lesson, and now I have been happily single for years, don’t care about Ns as boyfriends, and certainly do not regret my ex …. this is to say that I do not wish to underestimate the impact of Ns within the boundary of personal relationships (because I know all too well that the “easy choice to leave them” is not at all “easy”) … nevertheless, what I mean is that leaving an N boyfriend still CAN be a choice (however difficult). Unfortunately the same cannot be said for other situations where one has to deal with Ns.
Actually what haunts me is something much more terrifying than falling in love with an N: i.e. having to face the reality that Ns don’t need to win your affections/enter your private life to ruin lives, they can do that nevertheless (and without your cooperation).
I mean: I can DECIDE and CHOOSE and MAKE IT A POINT not to have any boyfriends, or to break contact if any such boyfriend turns out to be abusive, and to stay single all my life if I have to, but how can I put food in my mouth if the Ns happen to be in the workplace and make it impossible to keep a job?
How can one function in a society if one cannot defend oneself from Ns in the workplace?
The workplace is a place one cannot easily leave (unless one finds another job), because one has to earn a living, and at the same time one cannot choose who you work with, and one is powerless.
If you have no one you can rely on, have little or no money, have to pay the rent and totally depend on a monthly salary, almost starve, how can you afford to get fired or to quit the job (especially if the economy is in recession), no matter what Ns do to abuse you 8 hrs a day, five days a week, four weeks a month, for 12 months a year, for the rest of your life?
I am very desperate by the realization of this.
There seems to be no solution, no safety, no escape, if one has no objective power to defend oneself.
Problem is I cannot defend myself, even though I make it paramount to behave in a neutral way with everybody (to avoid letting them see how to manipulate me, avoiding emotional reactions, avoiding starting dangerous conversations, and to avoid stirring in any way their potentially harmful ego responses).
Actually like anyone else I would be grateful for simply being allowed to live in peace and get along fine, no dramas, nothing to want, no demands to make out of no one, nothing but hard work and grateful acceptance for whatever nice and good comes of my hard work, letting others do the same.
In the workplace, I worked hard, did all they asked me to, never complained, got some positive responses from my superiors, but nevertheless I had to quit because two Narcissistic colleagues suddenly decided that I had to appear like a stupid clumsy girl, and they went as far as to tamper with office correspondence in order to be able to blame me (i had prepared two envelopes to send and they switched the labels with the addresses before the postman came to collect them). When their plan was not enough, they decided to suddenly (and unexpectedly) start to abuse, harass and belittle me on a daily basis 8 hrs a day, while still managing to sound perfectly charming with their actorial abilities (picture someone falsely telling you “i do not know what is the matter with you, we do all we can to help since you are new. Maybe you do not feel at ease here? Maybe you are clumsy by nature” … while they know all the way that THEY are doing this to you), so that eventually i became deeply distressed and lost concentration. I quit when I sensed that they were going to do something very big and very nasty (probably they were ready to damage the company or some other innocent person using me as a means), for which i would get the blame. I suddenly realized I was pressed against a wall: I couldn’t defend myself, i was new at the job, guts told me that nobody would have believed me, the more so if i had tried to say “look it’s them!”, admittedly i would have appered to be insane! (and even if they did see, they would/could do nothing to help) I even started having trouble sleeping. The evening in which i decided to quit i had come home so distressed and scared that i was literally trembling, the body started to shiver and i suddenly felt like my body temperature had dropped, hands and arms and torso, like I was physically very cold or sick, although i was not, just felt so scared.
Just recently some other very negative thing happened to me: another person i hardly know (in yet another workplace) did something very deliberate and VERY nasty to me and I was in disbelief, and totally helpless: unfortunately i depend on this person’s input for doing my job right. Also I have no way to know if our supervisor knows/agrees with the sabotaging against me or not (i don’t know if he wasn’t realizing what was happening, or if he just for some reason decided not to do anything, or if he was the one who encouraged the other to act that way). I know I have no one to turn to.
Please Elisse, do you have any advice? I feel hopeless, desperate… unfortunately this blog seems to focus on Ns in the context of a loving relationship but what about all the Ns damaging everyone else outside personal relationships?
Is there a psychiatrist who can tell me how can I make them stop abusing me or even stop them wanting to? What makes Ns decide against attacking a “neutral player”?? What makes them decide to (apart from jealousy and power)?? CAN I EVER LIVE MY LIFE??
PLEASE WHAT I CAN DO … PLEASE HELP …
If I just try to do my job to afford a bed to sleep on and some food to eat, and do nothing to demand attention or to stir jealousy, never complain, never do anything competitive (just limiting myself to what I am being told) why would they feel entitled to hurt and destroy me???????
How can they be so heartless and evil???
… I find myself praying to God for help so often, to give me strength to live on, never before in my life have I though about God so much in my life, I feel like i believe or I need to believe there is someone good and capable of helping …
Tess,
Absolutely! Having co-workers who are narcissists or a boss who is an N is horrible. I am so sorry you are having to go through this. The N that knew was a co-worker and although he had nothing to do with my work area he would find excuses to come to my office. He gaslighted me by moving documents for example.
Do you have a supportive Human Resources dept? Better yet, do you have a Union? Is there an older woman who seems trustworthy? I don’t know how long you have worked there, so it is difficult to know who can trust. Also you don’t know if some people are related. There is nepotism where I work.
There are books about working with narcissists:
http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Guide-Narcissistic-Personality-Disorder/dp/1440528810/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1421374881&sr=1-3
http://www.amazon.com/Narcissists-Your-Life-Narcissistic-Personality-ebook/dp/B00KL33N32/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1421375180&sr=1-2&keywords=The+narcissists+in+your+life
http://www.amazon.com/Narcissists-Your-Life-Narcissistic-Personality-ebook/dp/B00KL33N32/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1421375180&sr=1-2&keywords=The+narcissists+in+your+life
The second book I listed you can read on a Kindle – its free.
I’ve never found a therapist who could counsel me on working with an N but I am good with a book. I can read it over and over, I can highlight the meaningful parts. Hope these three links can help you.
Peace to you
Elisse Stuart